It appears that the debate between God and Science is starting up again in Kansas: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7736155/.

So now I feel compelled to state my views on the subject matter....

In the article it states that three panelists in the debate are Republicans who have questioned evolution themselves,.... wonderful.

Religious beliefs aside, I do not see how one could question that evolution occurs. Contrary to popular belief evolution can be seen over relatively short periods of time, just in less developed forms of life. Evolution is occuring all the time on the microbial level of life, an example would be bacteria developing a resistance to specific medication. Granted, we will probably never know definitively if humans evolved from apes or if there is a common ancestor to all forms of life on Earth, but this is what evidence suggests. In other words, evolution is the best induction of the origins of life. There is no scientific evidence of creationism.

Having said that, I am not discouting the possibility of a god(s) or greater being(s) beyond this plane of existence, because there is no evidence that God does not exist either. Also, there are others that accept aspects of evolution and science and attribute it to some sort of God, which is more reasonable in my view. However, that sort of logic that states tries to describe something we do not understand as the work of divinity is shaky at best. It is that same logic that early man used to describe the sun as a sort of divine being itself, but as we gained more knowledge of our surroundings we discovered it was just a giant ball of gas we revolve around. In other words, it is not adequate to simply some up things we do not understand as the work of God.

Many scientists still believe in the existence of some form of life greater, or just different, than the three dimensional universe we are subject to. Super-string theory has lead to the postulation of mulitple universes existing with various numbers of dimensions (read "Hyperspace" by M. Kaku for a good description of this field). So there could be life beyond what we know, however, it may not exist as the traditional God of monotheistic faiths.

In my perfect world both would be taught in a way. Evolution would be taught in Science class, because it is what can be induced with the scientific method of approaching problems. Creationism would be taught when learning about different religions, and it would be described in the context of that specific religion. The two really should not be competing against each other. However, those wonderful US Republicans want the Christian view of the world taught in class, and want Creationism taught as science. Since it is Kansas, I doubt learning about different religious and theological beliefs is even considered in the curriculum, and if it is, they are probably covered in a condescending way.

JWB III

Amen.

I guess i'm fortunate that I had parent who let me grow up with a free mind but I can't understand how an educated or even semi educated ADULT could not believe in evolution.

Your church told you that the earth was flat, you still gonna believe that. I wonder how they explained that one back then.

I saw an Imax movie called "Volcanoes of the Deep" a while ago - it was an awesome documentary on life in the ocean - it talked about how the same DNA that humans have is common to all forms of life (just sequencing is different), and how there's all these forms of life that live deep down where there's zero sunlight and 'poisonous' gases all around - what we would consider uninhabitable conditions, but life thrives in these conditions. There was this cool looking plant that had blood - just like us - the movie basically postulated that life on this planet actually started from deep down inside the oceans and evolved and came up to the surface - and also what I found interesting was that the majority of the biomass is situated below the surface (i mean under water).

The funniest thing and the saddest fact was that there was something like 17 Imax theatres in the States that were showing this film but it was banned !

That's disgusting.

You can't hide from Science for ever, chuch freaks.

Church Freaks or Believers of being SET FREE
I thank our Lord for speaking through Kevin or Kheaven or whatever and giving us k-os.
"Judge not lest ye be judged" where words spoken as a gift to mankind by the son of man.
Worrying about what a "society" judges apon individuals who search for confirmation of their faith inside a church is a sin apon us all. Search for confirmation within your spirit and set yourself free of wanting to be free of your doubtful thoughts and you shall be rewarded. Ask and you shall receive my friends.


My name is Christopher - Steadfast for Christ.
I am unmoveable,always abounding in the work of the LORD, for as much as I know my labour is not of vain but in the name of the LORD.
Amen and Hallelejuh babylon is FALLING like a straw house and a brick house.

Believing in something solely because it's in a book is the complete oposite of being "SET FREE".

I ask you this: Why do you think that 17 states banned this documentary?

Don't respond right away, don't think of a response, just sit back and ask yourself this.

WHY ARE ALL THESE RICH INFLUENCIAL RELIGIOUS PEOPLE GOING THROUGH ALL THIS TROUBLE TO BAN A DOCUMENTARY?

All my questions will be answered when I get to heaven.
My only fear is of GOD himself. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom.
Heaven only Knows.
Some are chosen, not all can come. If you ask you shall recieve, but first you must believe.
I asked for the truth and I recieved it on April 11, 2005. I am just a baby now but my eagerness to learn is sometimes overwhelming to myself and others. Now I cannot wait for each new day to start. Time truley does fly with a crystal clear eye and believe me, I am not afraid to "die".

Maybe they are trying to ban the documentary because they are praying for more people to come to God and they believe this may hinder their minds from being tuned to the truth.

Right now I am praying for my friends to come to Lord. I am trying not worry about it but praying helps me through it.
And to all those out their looking for the truth I pray for you, I was there aswell but I thank God for his gracious mercy and now all my labour is for him.

May God bless you all.

How could a documentary filled with scientifical FACTS turn people away from truth.

It's called reality, son. LIVE IT!

I'm praying that people like you stop interfering with politics. And trust me, if there is a heaven after death, people like you will not be going there.

"Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom."

"I am not afraid to "die"." Because God told you there is a heaven?

Why in April 2005 you started believing in God? Feeling depressed, down on your luck, life not going so well? When someone starts telling you that god spoke to them and how much better they feel, run for it because they are a fekin lunatic! I know these people you have met will be warning you about sceptics but seriously don't listen to them, anyway its up to you, your life holmes!

As for evolution I can't believe people are still debating that, america is really going backwards. Politicians are bad enough but a 'born again/ evangelical christian' politician that is dangerous and the world can do without.

A government cannot be affiliated to any faith, it would be a contradiction in terms. That would mean they have no army, there are no poor, etc... How Christian is Bush only when it suits the m/f.

We can only honestly and deeply try our hardest to be Christian. But we are only man and we will sin, but our sins will be forgiven if we ask for it and truely believe.
I catch myself in various forms of sin all the time. In my prayers I ask to be delieverd from temptation.
Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Our salvation is in the purity of his blood.
In God I do trust. Ask and you shall recieve, seek and you shall find, knock and he will open the door. Just believe. Amen.

Christopher

It's all a fairy tale.

Jesus never died on the cross (and if he did it definitely wasn't for our sins). It was because the romans wanted him dead, not the Jews. Crucifiction was a sentence only given to the MOST heaviest charged political prisoners at the time. It was only Constantine, 400 years later who made it look like it was the Jew' fault so that Christianity would be more acceptable to romans. He also made up the myth that Jesus was divine. The Bible has been doctored. It is not credible. Do some research.

Your advice: "Just beleive" is some of the worst, most dangerous advice there ever was.

"Just believe because we told you so, we the most powerful and richest organisation in the world. Come on, you can trust us, it's not like we've ever been responsible for killing millions of people . . . oh wait . . . it's not like we've ever lied to you before . . . oh wait . . . the Earth wasn't flat after all. Ummm, either you believe in God - OUR GOD - or you go to hell. There, that always works.

"Are you gonna take that chance?"

What did religion ever give you besides war?

Hmmm... this thread of response has gotten a lot more crazy than I anticipated. However, that will not stop me from playing a little bit of devil's advocate.

Before I dive into my response, in order to help put my views into context, let me state that I am agnostic (this point is actually fairly obvious in my other posts).

The idea of religion is not a bad one to me. I have no problem in people wanting, an perhaps needing, to believe in some divine presence greater than ourselves to gain comfort and to provide some sort of guidance in their lives. Even the idea of organized religion poses no problem to me, the idea that people with similar beliefs could get together and share this beliefs in order to help themselves become better people is great. However, the theory and practice of religion become two completely different things. Unfortunately, organized religion has been used as an excuse for people to kill each other. This is not to say that if religion did not exist (like in Nietzsche's perfect world), people would not kill each other, sadly, humans are willing to find any reason imaginable to kill each other.

So why does this good idea go so wrong?

Wars and genocides, I believe, do not occur because one group wants to kill the other specifically because they believe in a different faith system. The cause is much more rooted in the need for power. I believe that any sort of organized religion will begin to lose its way the moment a power structure is applied. Once this is in place, those at the top of the power structure want to spread its control. Therefore, people who do not fall into their faith are able to remain outside of their control (unless, of course, there is no separation between chuch and state... but again, if enough people do not follow the faith of the state, the power of the state becomes compromised). So when thinking about politics vs. religion we have to keep in mind that they are often attempting to achieve the same end (in many cultures politics and religion are the same thing!!).

As I have stated in another post, science and religion are not mutually exclusive concepts. Many scientists believe that a deeper understanding of the physical laws of our universe provide us with a deeper understanding of God. Furthermore, theoretical physics has postulated the existence of more dimensions beyond our four dimensional world that we are accustomed to (I say 4 dimensions because time is a dimesion as well, so 3 spatial dimensions and time). So there may very well be some sort of existence beyond our world, but maybe not in the form of a God.

Some other points:
-Yes, the Bible was written by men who are fallible, and undergone a few "customizations". Yes, people often interpret it as they please to fit their preformed beliefs. However, to totally bash the Bible is a tad arrogant. It has formed the basis of much of our moral framework, and if nothing else, is an extremely important piece of literature to Western Culture.

-Perhaps a web forum is not the best place to declare that you received divine intervention, nor is this web forum a good place to try to convert anyone.

-Please do not make any suggestions of the faith of K-os based on your interpretation of his music... I do get a more spiritual vibe than a Christian one (yes I realize the irony in me stating that, no need to point it out).


JWBIII

Just wondering, are these scientific "facts" the same "facts" that give us missing gaps in the theory of evolution?

There are no undisbuted, undeniably proven facts as to how we got here.

The argument that I find athiests and other non-believers use the most is "if Gog created everything, what created God?" "Something can't come from nothing." Then go on to say that theory of evolutions correct, or even the big bang. But lets turn the tables here: Each theory on how we came to exist resulted in something coming from nothing. Take evolution all the way back to the beginning, to the very first atom, what created that atom? It can't just be there because clearly something can't come from nothing, unless it's just a double-standard and that only applies to those who believe in the "fairy tale" as you put it.

Same goes for Big Bang: an atom floating through space, which came from nothing (double standard again), just happens to explode and woosh, everything is there.

Hate to point it out bro, but Darwin himself admitted he was wrong. He said he miscalculated things, so Evolution "is not creadible. Do some research."

I find it funny that people bash Christians, or believers of other docterines for having faith in an omnipitant being, while (from where I'm sitting) it takes far more faith to believe in something like Creation (with all the gaps), and Big Bang than it does to believe in a God.

To address your first point, I just want to say that I disagree with organized religion for a multiple of reasons. One being that I beleive that a person's relationship with God is an individual affair. I think you have to have an open mind and you have to be free to question things you are taught. Questioning is very Natural. Religions frawn forbid questioning.

And to address this line: "Wars and genocides, I believe, do not occur because one group wants to kill the other specifically because they believe in a different faith system."

OF COURSE. The people who START and perpetuate wars aren't doing it for any sort of spiritual/idealogical reasons but they USE these belief systems to uniform and motivate their soldiers and supporters. Religion is one of the single greatest tool for controling MASS amount of people.

Over one billion Catholics. It's gonna be crowded up in Heaven.

hahaha

Where do you get your information? Questioning things for ones own curriosity isn't frowned opon. Asking questions could lead to a deeper understanding, which isn't a bad thing.



Yes, theory, seeing as it's not fact.

Maybe I should of been a little bit clearer. Questioning things like whether Jesus really is the savior for instance. Questioning if Jesus wasn't really a God perhaps . . . These types of questions can land you a slap across the face. And I base this information on empirical FACTS. My Mom was in a convent. I know this is how it is.

Lunch box - I don't think you really understand what evolution is. I got this impression from reading this paragraph especially:


Let me try to explain what evolution is. First of all it is NOT an explanation for how life was created. It IS how life forms got to be what they are right now. It is a very simple principal. Here's an example: Let's say that a few thousand years ago there was a group of animals. Each group developed their own style of hunting/procreating. One group decided that if she had too many babies she would eat a couple of them so that the whole group wouldn't starve to death. Now the animals who didn't practice this method eventually died off. The group who did practice this method obviously survived and that is what we see today. That is evolution. That is just commen sense.



Of course. That's why scientists and philosophers are trying to figure out how we "got here". But people who believe in the absurd fairy tale of Creationism think that they KNOW how we all got here. If there is no proven facts as to how the Earth/man was created then why do you believe so strongly in Creationism?

I'm sorry to break this to you kid, but the Big bang theory is closer than any other theory we've got so far. And as long as we keep questioning and searching we will probably one day find our answers. If you go about believing something because you think it will bring you to heaven or because you are scared to believe other wise, then you will live your life as a blind as a bat. And when you die you will have the veils removed sevenfold, and the light will blind you once again.

All i'm saying is be open to the possibility that Jesus really won't/can't save you. Be open to the posibility that there is no heaven after death, or that heaven and hell are right here on earth. Be open in all your beliefs. And if someone elses beleifs offend/upset you in the slightest then there is something wrong here. Find meaning in life, not life after death, cause by then it will be too late.

I believe there may be a misunderstanding between us. Do I believe creationism is correct? Yes, to me that is fact. But all of us will find out weather or not God exists when our time is up. I respect your opinion, and I'm not trying to prove you wrong or anything of that sort, just here to toss out another opinion and look on things to further this discussion. My thing with Evolution is the missing gaps, Darwins admitance he was wrong, amongst other things.

To me personally, there is a God, who sent his son to earth, and he did die for all of mankinds sins. One of the many reasons I love God is the fact that he doesn't force us to believe, he gave us a choice. We can choose to believe in him, or ignore him. I'm not a believer because of promised heaven (although I do look forward to paradise), but because to me it feels right, and when you see the holy spirit in people, that is all the proof I need to see.

What missing gaps? And what did Darwin "admit" was wrong?

It sounds like you're just regurgitating what someone else has said to you. Explain yourself or I will not take anything you say serious.

And although "god" doesn't force us to beleive, the CHURCH sure does. And if they're not force feeding their beliefs on you, they SCARE you into beleiving their doctrine. "You don't want to spend eternity in Hell do you?" Of course it feels right.

The stages between man and ape. Darwin that some of mis-maid some of his calculations, and made assumptions on the outcome.

Dude, I'm not here to prove one case right or wrong. But you tell believers to open their mind to the possibilty that there might not be a God. Why not open your mind to the possibility that there is a God. Also, I didn't get frightened into believing my friend, I got this point myself.

Your issue seems to be more with the church than God him/herself.

Of course. I have no problem with believing in God. I myself believe in a God of some kind. The church is my real nemesis.

My main thing is not about opening up to your mind about the fact that there might not be a god, it is about opening your mind up to any and every possibility that makes sense to you.

To me, Creationism doesn't make ANY sense at all. If you could explain it to me in a way that it makes sense with our 21st century mind then I will be very impressed. Here are the gaps that lie in the Creationist beleif:

According to Creationist, the Earth is only 10, 000 years old. This is obviously been PROVEN wrong. It is a fact that cannot be denied.

Two, according to Creationist the dinosaurs never existed. Again this is obviously wrong, REAL facts prove this to be incorrect.

I could go on but I really shouldn't. The story of Creation is merely a metaphor, a simply story that attempts to explain something that couldn't have been explained at the time. It is NOT meant to be taken literaly. It is not meant to be an explination for how life began, how we got here. This is what SCIENCE is for.

Fun Fact, ancient Buddhists discovered the main principles of Quantum Physics way before modern phisics was developed. There is a connection between science and Spirituality. We must not separate the two. We must use them both to discover the mysteries of life.

Oh . . . and if you want to talk about people making mistakes . . . H E L L O ! ! ! ! !

"The earth is round"
"The earth has been around only 10, 000 years"
"The planets revolved around the earth"

All scientists make mistakes. It's a HUGE Part of the learning process.

And yo, your response was REALLY vague: "The stages between man and ape. Darwin that some of mis-maid some of his calculations, and made assumptions on the outcome."

Stop regurgitating Christian propaganda.

Just wondering firefly, have you heard the theory about how the "seven days" of creation weren't days as we look at them?

It goes down like the days were perhaps months, years, etc. I'm not entirely sure about it, but from what I gather it points out that there could have been longer periods of time during these 7 Days (who knows, to God a day could be like five years).

And where in creation does it say Dinosaurs didn't exist? Nowhere in the bible (and its many updated version) does it say that.

Also I don't follw on the "Only 10 000 years old", where in Genisis it states that many people lived to be over 1000 years old, and this is well before Christs birth.

It doesn't say anywhere that dinosaurs didn't exist of course, but if the earth has only been around a few thousand years then obviously there didn't exist any. That is why the fundamentalists don't believe in the dinosaurs. I guess I sort of lumped that in there. Sorry for that.

As for your whole "It doesn't necessarily mean DAYS" comment. Give me a break, the Earth has been around for something like 5 Billion years. The Universe, who knows? As if months or years make any difference. The creationist belief isn't even a real theory. All it is is someone saying "God did this and this and this and this and alakazam we have the earth".

Why do you people pretend to have it all figured out instead of admitting that you don't know shhit? Just like the rest of us . . . .

Dude, I don't have it all figured out. No one does. I'm just saying what I believe and feel man.

But what do you believe exactly?

And WHY do you believe it? That's what matters.

Hey, if god came to earth as jesus, does that not mean that he experiences time the same as we do? I dont think there would be a time difference just because he's 'divine'.

Can't answer the questions?

There is something troubling about that.

I believe in God and Jesus.
God gives us life aslong as we follow the guidelines he gave to us. He is going to test us on those guidelines and it is up to us to give our will power to him. The Lord speaks to us individually. He spoke to Moses directly, but to the rest of the prophets of the Lord he spoke to them in riddles to test their faith.
Jesus had no religion. He was a man who was sent here from God our father in heaven, only to preach the gospel of our father than to be persecuted by his own brothers on God's agenda not anyone elses.

I speak these words not for PROFIT. I speak these words as if I were sent from GOD.

Christopher

I believe that there is a God who created the universe and all living things in the universe. I believe this God sent his only son Jesus Christ down to earth, who died for all of mankinds sins. This is a God whose no dictator, and gave us all a choice to acknowledge him or ignore him, to believe or not believe. God gave us everything, and in our nature, as in our history...we screwed it up.

As for the later, I believe in God because to me, it feels right, and is the most logical reason in how we got here. I can't put it all entirely into words (haven't really tried typing it out), but I do know this: God gives me hope.

hahaha

I love this shhit. Keep it comming.

God didn't give me the choice, my parents did by not forcing me into a beleif system - a fundamentaly flawed/corrupt system at that.

They were both raised Catholic. My Dad was a choir boy, my Mom was raised in a convent. They saw the evil that lies within. Thank God for that.

I'm telling you, there's so much you are not experiencing by being bonded by the chains of organized religion. Break free and you will see a Spiritual world that you never imagined existed here on earth. Or don't, I don't really care. Just thought I'd recommed this to you cause you seem like a nice person.

One thing I really wanted from you was an explination of what exactly Creationism is. If you can elaborate on "I believe that there is a God who created the universe and all living things in the universe" it would be much appreciated. Cause that really isn't an answer. It's like me trying to explain the big bang by saying "So there was this BIG BANG and the whole Universe was created". It's not an explination at all, it's regurgitating propaganda. Which is what worries me.

If you are not able to write down or verbalize what exactly your fundamental belief is, then it's time to re-asses your whole belief structure. Read the "Tibetan book of the Dead". It will change your life. Read something by Confucious or Lao-Tsu. Expand your mind, it cannot hurt. If you limit yourself to one book of knowledge you will be LEFT IN THE DARK.

Believe it or not but the Bible has been doctored numerous of time. Information was left out while other stuff was added. The church has been lying about the life of Jesus for 1600 years and the Truth will be revealed very soon I beleive.

"As for the later, I believe in God because to me, it feels right, and is the most logical reason in how we got here. I can't put it all entirely into words (haven't really tried typing it out), but I do know this: God gives me hope. " - Lunch box

All right, the argument I'm interjection myself into is becoming kind of semantic, but I just couldn't let this one go. Futhermore, it is off topic (but Hey!! this is a web forum, no web forum in the history of the internet has stayed on topic... but I digress)

The passage above in quotations (posted by Lunch Box) is such a faulty argument I could not let it go, specifically the first sentence.

Let me break it down.

In the first sentence Lunch Box makes two statements.
1. I believe in God because it just feels right to me.
2. I believe in God because it is the most logical reason as to how we got here.

Ignoring which is right or wrong, the statements contradict each other. If I were to make the statement that I believed in God for unclear reasons, or just because it "feels right." I am making the assertion that my belief is based on a sort of intuition or general feeling. Intuition and general feelings are not based on any sort of deductive (or inductive) logic, let alone empiral evidence. So to then make the assertion that God is the most logical explaination of creation, without any evidence of such, is a contradiction.

Question: But I can't an explaination for something be based on both feeling and logic?
Answer: No.
Explaination: If I believe something to be true solely on feeling, there is no logic. Once evidence surfaces that develops a logic to the conclusion, the feeling is no longer relevant. A stupid example: if I believe the sky is blue and I have seen evidence that the sky is blue, my "feeling" about it is no longer relevant nor is it the reason why I believe the sky is blue; I believe the sky is blue based on the evidence that develops logic to the conclusion, not my feeling.

Thus, if you could believe in God based on logic you would not need to rely on a "feeling."

Next question: But can't you use logic to determine the existence of God?
Answer: No you can't!!!
Explaination: This is my main point: you cannot use logic to determine the existence of God. Philosophers have tried for hundreds, if not, thousands of years to so, and nothing has worked. I think it was Descartes (I could very well be wrong, my first year university philosophy is a bit sketchy) that tried to use logic. He claimed, God is the greatest possible being, it is better to exist than not to exist, therefore God must exist.... Well, it would be better for there to be a $100 bill in my wallet right now, but there isn't. Also, if you polled a the students and faculty of a University philosophy program I am certain that a very small minority would be true believers, from my experience most are atheists and agnostics.

Bottom line: Rational discourse and logic do not have the means necessary to prove, or disprove, the existence of God. It is called "Faith" for a reason, ie belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

Good points JWBIII. Thanks for bringing those up.

The guy believes in Creationism over Evolution. He has no logic.

Nor was he able to explain what "Creationism" actually means.

some people are trying there whole lives to figureout if god exsist, or not exsist, but if god realy exsist you think he would be proven trough scientistical tests. if god let himsef be proven by a scientist´s report, would he be god. i mean he is greater than all!
so as a christian all attempt to find out if god exist trough scienc is foolishnes (to me), cuz they are not going to find it. just so yall know i DONT think scienc is bad, on the contrary knowledge of this world are helping us live better lives.
and just so you know, its only a minority in the west part of the world thats holding on to the evolutiontheory.

then you maby can say what kind of creationism you mean, i guess your talking about sceitisfic creationism hu? correct me if im wrong but dosent scientific creationisn leads to evolution? what do you belive?
i mean can anybody say what existed befor "big bang" or what ever you want to say created the universe? there had to be something befor that exposion, right.
it just makes it so hard to belive evolution as a christian... if we enwolved from apes to humans, that would make us smarter than god! we was created as an image of god..............that would make god an ape.?!.

(hmm you said that you grew up with a free mind firefly, your own choice)
and offcourse god gave you a choice... its obvious that you have made it to.
god gave you a chice, but you parents did not. and i dont think you belive that god is your parents.

and fire fly, what in the bible are wrong, added?
ive been resurching a loooong time in this subect.
so firefly, you think the 9/11 tragic was allahs faulth?
what was the world suposed to think? the bible was written in latin.
if a learned man says that the earth is flat wouldnt you belive it?
it was thanks to martin luther the bible was translated to the ordinary people.
befor that everybody had to trust the preatchers.
and if you read the bible you can se that it says that you should lookout for false teatchers/preatchers. so if a man kills in gods name its surtenly not from god. murder is a sin you know.


(((((((the books that was used in the bible was tryed after strict criterion to be counted as apart of it.
(some examples)They had to:
-they HAD to be writen by the apsotels, OR a person connected to one of them.
-needed to have enourmus authority in the first assembly.
-be used by the christian assemblys from the beginning.
-be free from contradiction.))))))

so if a documenary on TV says that all life started from deep down under the ocean thats the truth? so everything on tv is true? does that icludes newspapers. they sayed bin ladin died like 10 timed just this last year. ooo i really wanted to se that documentary.....thats just sad that they banned that movie cuz that should show it so it can be reviewd.

the only place in the world that religeons not spreading are the americaniced countries, and "claro" the USA. and its here people are most dipressed, stressed, people not seeing a meaning with life, leading to suecides.
but we have all the materialistic conditions, that schould make us happy, right.


intresting discusion by the way!

and christoffer, keep preatchin! god bless yall

First of all it makes me laugh that you call it a theory. Secondly, I think you are wrong about the minority part. I for one, don't know a single person who doesn't believe in evolution.



You are mistaken my friend. My parents gave me a choice to believe in what ever version of God I wanted. The time of the churches rule is OVER. We are now in the age of reason.



The bible says that the earth is only 5, 000 years old. It says Jesus was some kind of a demi god. It also says that his wife, Mary Magdalen was a whore. As for your statement about Septemper 11th; it definitely was not "Allah's fault". It was the fault of man, from this side of the globe to Saudi Arabia.



Keep regurgitating that propapada brother! The reason that America is full of fat, depressed and uninspired people is because of Corporate America, not because of a loss of religious dogma. Places like Europe and Asia are also being less and less religious too, it's not just the Americas.

Listen, I understand why you believe in what you do. It's comforting, safe, but don't you want to know the Truth? Even if it's the simple truth of who Jesus really was. You'll never going to know unless you open your mind to the fact that the church has been lying to us for over 1, 600 years.

And where does it say that I believe everything I hear on TV? The TV is just another instrument to spread lies to control the people. Which is what religion was used for for all these years.

FireFly, I think you're wasting your time trying to reason with this "johan" character.

reason? he´s not reasoning at all.
its hard to argue with you. you seem kind´a childish, firefly.

why can i not say that its a theory?

its just that you said that you did not have a choice, after you said that you had.
good, now i know witch one was true.

so you have read "the da vici code"?

i think you missread my sentence about 9/11.
your saying that christianity is responsible for thousands of murders.
its not christianity, its humans fault.

i did not say the americans, i ment the countries that are influenced by america, witch is a biiiiig part of europe.
sorry my man, thats wrong, if you think im american your also wrong.
asia is getting more and more religios.

no its not because i think its safe, its because ive experienced him.

in what way are religeon controling us? my xbox is way more controling than my religion. do you mean that the curch are controling the people or some religios leader?

I never said you couldn't say that. I just said that it made me laugh.



I never said that I didn't have a choice. If I typed that then it was a typo.



Where do you think Dan Brown got his information from? You think he just made it up? Do a quick search on the internet or in your local library and you will see that it is well documented. Not to mention that it makes perfect sense.

JESUS WAS A RABBI - If you argue this fact I will laugh myself to death - and as a rabbi it was unheard of to not be married and have kids. You mis-informed xstrians don't know sh!t about your own "savior". He was a Jew who was killed by the same people who started Christianity. Those people are still, to this day the richest organisation in the world. The Roman catholic church.

They used Jesus. They used his name and his teachings to turn all the pagans - who had their own religion - into "christians". They then went on to do this all over the world. They slaughtered and rapped native people all over the Americas. Forcefully converted children to their religion. They do this as a stradegy of war and donimation. Although most people believe that they are actually saving people. That's the sick part of it.



Not just christianity, all salvationist religions. And YES, of course Christianity did not physically murder people but religious and military leaders have used it for centuries to motivate people to kill.

How about all the people dying of aids in Africa because the Pope saying that using condoms is a sin?



Him? hahaha please.

what is so funny about the THEORY of evolution? you belive in it, but you cant prove it so how can you be so sure?

jesus was a rabbi? then go ahead, laugh yourself to death.
what makes you belive he was a rabbi?
Jesus was not technically a rabbi, nor did he portray himself as one.
if you say your the son of god it would surely upset a lot of jews. ha was hated by the jews man! he could never have been approved as a rabbi.
no way, get out of town, he was a jew???
ofcourse he was a jew. and you know everything about him efter reading the da vici code? im not a catholic, baptist.
Jesus was the founder of christianity, the chuches dident exist utill after he died.


how can you say its religions fault? its evil mens fault!
like i sayed, you cant blame islam for 9/11 just cuz they say its gods will.

yeah thats sad, why dont you tell the pope that people them condoms cuz i agree with you.its really sick that catholics not are aloud to us rubbers, but then again im not catholic.

belive me ive seen unnatural things man. things that also you can experience.

so in what way are you free? what is freedome to you?

He's right about that... However.. I think humans constantly think in terms of "Duality".. why are we fighting?... Just because one has a belief means we should bash others.. or try and force our beleif unto others... sure things make sence to you.


But think of it this way..

TRUTH is just a perception of your own realities...


This whole damn forum is formed under "DUALITY.... god vs. science?.... ok...

U gotta be more aware of your thought processes... curiouisty has brought thought and thought has brought beliefs and GOD.... The whole process of how we get upset when someone doesnt believe wut u do... We fear wut we dont understand. It is a natural thing... we are a kind of species that is confterble in things we kno...

Ha ha your joking right ? - Jesus was a Buddhist

Ask any Theologian and they will tell you that Jesus was a Rabbi. It's so sad most xstrians don't even know about their own teachers. If I were you, I would stop arguing with me about this and go do a bit of research on the matter.

And you could stop using that line about "the da vinci code", I've read other books on the subject.

As for your point about Islam and 9/11, OBVIOUSLY the religion itself is not solely to blame but my point about religion (all religions) is that it divides people which in turn creates conflict. Religion also does a good job at keeping it's people ignorant and ignorance is one of the greatest dangers facing our world.

That is why I debate issues like this with people. Not because I can't take hearing other peoples beliefs but because I don't like what certain peoples beliefs do to society. I'm also quite pissed off with all the crimes on humanity commited by religious people (xstristians especially).

And Johan, I never said that I didn't believe in God, just not your god. I've also experience things that I cannot explain. Things that made me believe in a higher power. But not once have I ever refered to that power as "him".

What is Freedom to me? Freedom is being able to act instead of to react. Freedom is about living in the present, not the past. It's about not being bonded by the chains of thought, which IS the past. Something that is very hard for us all to do.

That is not duality

Alright man, lets draw a line over this discusion. it wont lead to anything.
to end this ill quote ron burgundy "agree to disagree"

peace.


"This whole damn forum is formed under "DUALITY.... god vs. science?.... ok..."

exactly, that is not duality.......

Listen, Rabbi is simply the Hebrew word for Master or Teacher.

Can we at least agree that Jesus was a Jewish teacher? If we can't agree on this then there is no point in having this disscussion with you.

Shhhhhhiggitty shiggitty shoaaawwwwwwww

No way man he was Buddhist -

ok Christ is born under the star - the way still to this day, that every Delia lama great holy teacher in Buddhism is known - he disappears off out of the story for 30 years while training, learning and reaching his enlightenment and comes back preaching peace - forgiveness - not the old Eye for and Eye message - but forgiveness - love, compassion, self sacrifice - he creates food out of air - a skill attributed to some of the greatest yogis still to this day and dies and is reborn - reincarnation. and his biggest doubter Thomas, who when he sees the truth later becomes his greatest preacher, returns to the far east to continue Christ’s message. on top of which there has been some compelling evidence recently showing that the route of the Jewish people is in the Indian, Tibetan plains - no wonder he came back proclaiming he was king of there faith. Christ’s story is fundamentally a Buddhist message... don’t forget Christianity is an Easton religion not a Weston one, we just adopted it.

Stonwin.. that was very interesting..